Posted originally on CTH on September 21, 2025 | Sundance

Below is the full interview between CBS’s Margaret Brennan and French President Emmanuel Macron. A portion of this interview aired on “Face the Nation”, however this is the complete interview.

Earlier today the U.K, Canada and Australia, 3 of the Five-Eyes western intelligence networks, announced their recognition of a Palestinian state.  France will announce the same tomorrow.  Israel is now slightly more vulnerable and in a diminished position of support from the western allied nations.  Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is more dependent on support from the U.S. than ever before.

President Macron is also facing significant domestic opposition, and his prior appointed Prime Ministers have failed and been removed. The French economy is struggling, and Macron has deflected attention to the Ukraine war in an effort to avoid domestic accountability.  With the Ukraine vs Russia conflict taking a lower profile, thanks in part to President Trump’s approach – demanding NATO/EU stop purchasing Russian energy products in order to gain U.S. support for increased sanctions, Macron now shifts attention to the Israel-Hamas war.  WATCH:

[Transcript] – MARGARET BRENNAN: Okay, Mr. President, if you’re ready, we’ll dive right in.

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: Thank you.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Thank you for having us here. You know, most countries in the world recognize Palestinian statehood. It’s 147 of 193 countries at the UN, but France is going to be the first western UN Security Council member to do so. What conditions are there for this?

PRESIDENT MACRON: Look, thank you, and thank you for being here and offering me the opportunity to have such a discussion. I think it was a necessity first to decide this recognition, and I will announce it on the 22nd of September at the United Nations, precisely because we are at the very moment where if we want peace and security for all in the region, we have to preserve the condition of a political perspective for everybody. So we will announce the recognition, but which is the beginning of a political process and a peace and security plan for everybody. So right after this- this recognition, we have a first phase, which is, I would say, the emergency phase, ceasefire, release of all hostages..and third, restoring the humanitarian roads and the stabilization of Gaza. We have a second package, which is the day after we will revert on that how to organize Gaza in terms of governance, security and reconstruction. And third package, the perspective of the two states. But recognizing the Palestinian state today is the only way to provide a political solution to a situation which has to stop.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But you are not making the release of the hostages a condition before recognition–

PRESIDENT MACRON: So this is a clear condition before we will open an embassy. This is the first series of conditions and requirements we will push- we will put in the peace process. But we will announce the 22nd this recognition of Palestinian state.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So Secretary of State Marco Rubio said this is a ‘reckless decision.’ That’s the word he used. He said it gives Hamas little incentive to actually start diplomacy to release the hostages. Why do you disagree with that sequencing?

PRESIDENT MACRON: So my first point is to say, I don’t answer the Hamas with that. I don’t meet the expectations of Hamas. Hamas is just obsessed by destroying Israel, but I recognize the legitimacy of so many Palestinian people who want a state, who are a people. They want a nation, they want a state, and we should not push them towards Hamas. If we don’t offer them a political perspective and such a recognition, the unique answer will be security, and they will be completely trapped by Hamas as a unique option. My second point is, thanks to this recognition, and thanks to the diplomatic move we launched, we started to isolate Hamas because we- at the New York declaration, which was voted, as you know, by 142 countries. We gathered all the Arab League states, all the leaders of the regions, to work closely with us to precisely dismantle and disarm Hamas. Till now, they were not engaged in such a move. Now we gathered all these states, all these people to work closely with us in this move. So I think this is why we can create the condition of a concrete action, first, to give this right to the Palestinian people, second, to isolate Hamas from the rest of the Palestinians and the whole region, and precisely build security. But let me tell you something which is, for me, very important in this context, Israel had wonderful security results against Hezbollah Hamas top leaders, and managed to- to neutralize a lot of top decision makers of terrorist groups. They did it. This is their merit. But in terms of fighting against Hamas, this is a failure of today. They started–

MARGARET BRENNAN: What is a failure?

PRESIDENT MACRON: –Because they- they killed all the key leaders- this is a success. But at the beginning of this war, you had more or less 25,000 Hamas fighters. The Israeli army killed probably half of them, but Hamas managed to recruit the equivalent. You have as many fighters at the very beginning, which is the best evidence of the fact, if we want to dismantle Hamas, the total war is not the answer, because it’s just killing the credibility of Israel- and by the way, weakening and killing our own credibility if we don’t make a move as the one we are organizing.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But you just pointed to something that Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu would say, well, this is why we need to continue until we get rid of every Hamas member. You’re saying you can’t kill that idea, you need to provide a different idea?

PRESIDENT MACRON: Exactly. But this is so- this is the whole perspective. And look at the situation, not just by the war in Gaza, but everywhere in the region. Hamas was clearly not backed by a lot of people before the seventh of October. If you took the polls in Gaza, but in all the countries of the region, they were very low in all the polls. Today, the level of support is much higher, because they are making the mistake, in fact, to reduce all the perspective of the Palestinians to the Hamas. What we have to say is we want the dismantling of Hamas. You had this success, there is no more top leaders. We want to isolate them. We want to bring everybody working with us to dismantle the Hamas. But recognizing this right to have a Palestinian state through a diplomatic channel, this just giving another channel and offering a political way and isolating Hamas. So, I think there is no future with the option, which would be just, let’s kill the maximum number of Hamas people, because they just recruit others and others. Because each time they launch this type of operation, they kill so many civilians that they are just destroying their own reputation and credibility, and they are creating an unsustainable framework of security in the whole region.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But, since October 7th, popular support in Israel for a Palestinian state has also declined. Prime Minister Netanyahu has been opposed for a very, very long time, and now he says that just look at those attacks that day. If you allow for any kind of Palestinian state, it will be a launch-pad for terrorism. I mean, that is his argument, that this shows you can’t allow for the safety and security of Israel if there are two states. Why is he wrong?

PRESIDENT MACRON: First, I want to- I want to say that the seventh of October was a total trauma for everybody in our country here, because we had so many French people being killed during the seventh of October terrorist attack launched by Hamas. And- and it was, for us, one of the biggest terrorist attack against our own fellow citizen. But we- we did share, and we do share, the pain and the suffer of Israeli people and so many families. And for me, the top priority remains the release of hostages. And I met very regularly families of hostages, and I have to say that what they live is unbearable. And I had the opportunity meet with (unintel) Guy’s mother and so many of them, and what they describe is absolutely unbearable. But, I consider that if we want precisely to build a sustainable peace for Israel itself and for Israeli people, a political process and the recognition of a Palestinian state, if the state recognizes the right of Israel to live and defend itself, is demilitarized, has security forces with the vetting process by Israel, with, obviously, a proper governance and reform governance and- and is precisely we have a series of reform which are part of the process.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But that’s it, right? You are talking about recognizing the Palestinian Authority, which has some governance over the West Bank, already was working with Israeli security forces. But Hamas came to power through the ballot box in the first place.

PRESIDENT MACRON: Look, it’s- if we are honest, it’s totally different. And this is why I think- let’s accept the fact that a lot of people worked very hard to kill the credibility of the Palestinian Authority in Gaza years ago, and Hamas appeared as precisely as sort of an alternative option. But, terrorist attacks were launched by Hamas, not by Palestinian Authority. And if we say all those living in Gaza, and all those backing the Palestinian state are de-facto the support of Hamas, there is no end to this war except the you kill everybody. And this is this is terrible. So we have to recognize that the Palestinian Authority has to be reformed. The governance is not satisfactory today. We need a new- you have a new- we need a new Palestinian Authority. But, let’s just remark, and, please notice with me, that thanks to the recognition process we launched, for the first time for many years, we got, the ninth of June, a series of clear commitments from the Palestinian Authority. They refused till now. The reform; a new vice president being elected, reform of the education program, a pay forcely, obviously, program as well, with the monitoring by a US audit structure. So we don’t just theories —

MARGARET BRENNAN: And they denounced October 7th–

PRESIDENT MACRON: — And for the very first time —

MARGARET BRENNAN: –20 months later.

PRESIDENT MACRON: This is true. But for what? Because we made this move. So the recognition is the way as well to re engage and bring them back in the table. And my point is to say, let’s isolate Hamas, and let’s focus on the dismantling of Hamas from a military and a political point of view. In order to do so, we have to re-engage with those who can be, I would say, a political achievement for Palestinian people. And this is why the recognition is so important. And if we revert to West Bank, one of the key elements which triggered my decision to announce in July, the perspective of the recognition for the 22nd of September is a vote of the Knesset. When the Knesset decided to start the settlements again in West Bank, it was the best evidence of the fact that they don’t want to fight against Hamas. There is no Hamas in West Bank. They just want to destroy the existing political bodies, and the possibility of the two states. And I really believe this is a terrible mistake for Israel itself, because in doing so, they just kill any other perspective that war.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But when you- I understand the argument you are making, but it has put you at direct odds with the Trump administration, who argue that your decision to make this recognition announcement, along with all these UN members, that it, in fact, kills the diplomacy they had underway. They said they were working to get, for example, the tax money from the Israelis to hand back over to the Palestinian Authority, that they were doing practical things on the ground to help Palestinians. Secretary Rubio said, that West Bank division you were talking about with the settlements, he drew a direct line to your recognition. Why do you think they’re blaming you for that?

PRESIDENT MACRON: Look, first, I think we all work very hard in order to improve the situation of- of people on the ground. And let me tell you that France, a lot of French people, French doctors, French citizen, French members of NGOs, are working very hard with our administration as well to help Palestinian people. And during the past years, we worked very (UNINTEL) and financed a lot of actions as well being led by UNRWA. Second, I think my- my objective is precisely to- to provide another perspective. We- we- we are closely coordinated with the U.S. administration when we speak about the ceasefire and the release of hostages. We were always in close coordination with Secretary of State, or- or key- key President Trump’s advisors, in order to work with Qatar, Egypt, and Israel on the release of hostages, of ceasefire. But your administration is focusing on the day after. And what we propose is a full-fledged plan, where we have first, the emergency package. So let’s deliver release of all hostages, ceasefire, and- and humanitarian access. The day we have that, we start the day after. And I think we are very convergent with the work which is being done by- by your administration. What we want is a de facto governance in Gaza, with clearly a sort of transitional- transitional administration, including the Palestinian Authority, excluding, clearly, Hamas. But with a vetting process of Israel and an association of all the neighbors, we have a security package in this- in this day after approach, which is, let’s scale up the training of the policemen and security forces of the Palestinians, and–

MARGARET BRENNAN: Who will do that?

PRESIDENT MACRON: We- we are already doing that, we’re doing so. Many countries of the regions. It does exist, but we need a scale up, and in parallel, we proposed, and we work very closely with the United Kingdom, and all the leaders of the region, precisely to offer a military- I would say, an international force to be deployed in Gaza, with a UN mandate. Which is a unique framework to be defended, and which could be legitimate, to assist and- and back, I would say, this policemen and security forces. And–

MARGARET BRENNAN: But you know, Israel does not trust the United Nations at all.

PRESIDENT MACRON: No- this is a UN framework, but this- first, they would have a vetting process of all the structure, and it would involve Jordan, Egypt, and some of- some others are ready as well to finance. But obviously it is to be made in close coordination with Israel. And in the security package, obviously, the core element is a dismantling of Hamas. There is no other option if you want to fix the situation, to disarm the Hamas, and precisely, to demobilize so many fighters, to organize what we call a DDR process, which is very familiar to all the experts in- in this type of situation. And this is in this day after for Gaza, in the security package, that we can organize such a DDR, vis a vis Hamas. And to be sure that Hamas will never be involved in the government, but that Hamas will be disarmed, dismantled, with some key people to leave Gaza and some other to be deradicalized, and the weapons to be taken. In order to do so, you need clear security forces here. You need these international forces to be here. And obviously we have the reconstruction. On that, I think there is a strong alignment with the United States. My point is, the recognition and the process we launched with that is the only way to bring with us, on this track, all the neighbors and key countries in order to deliver such a package. And- and look at the situation today, when Egypt, when so many leaders of the region, are not comfortable with what is being done. You need to re-engage them. And this is exactly what we are doing. But my point is to say, if we don’t have this full package, the day after is impossible, because today, de facto, you are accepting the displacement of population in Gaza City. How do you want the day after to be possible if you displace thousands of people?

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, exactly on this point, when you say, day after, that means when the war ends and some kind of rebuilding happens. What you’re talking about with the Trump administration is this idea of having Palestinians leave Gaza, by choice, they say. But some would say that is a step towards ethnic cleansing. In fact, an independent commission set up by the UN concluded Israel has a, quote, “intent to destroy Palestinians in Gaza, as defined by the Genocide Convention.” Does France agree with that report?

PRESIDENT MACRON: No, we don’t qualify as a genocide what’s happening because it is not a political statement. This is the judges or the, and or the historians to qualify a genocide by a series of evidence and a clear jurisprudence and clear elements.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So you reject that report and that finding?

And this is where I try to convince your administration that if we agree on the day after and we want this de facto authority, the security package, the dismantling of Hamas and the reconstruction, let’s work on the current day.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

PRESIDENT MACRON: If you accept de facto Israel to displace these people, you will never see a day after. And by the way, I look very carefully at all the plans being shared by your administration or shared by experts working for your administration. They always reiterate, let’s work and build Gaza for Gazans. It means that they are ready to preserve and protect Palestinian people because Gazans are those who are living in Gaza. But if the precondition of such a plan is to push them out, this is just a craziness. So we, we should not be—for the credibility of the United States, for the credibility of France–we cannot be implicitly or explicitly complacent with such a project. Because such a project, we know it. And by the way, all the security experts, even in Israel, are very clear on the fact it will be a humanitarian disaster. And this project will, will kill the possibility of a day after. So we have to be very explicit on the fact that attacking civilians just to get a few, a few terrorists and a few fighters is clearly not acceptable. But displacing people in order just to take a territory, which is not in the hands of Israel, in order to prepare the day after, is not just totally crazy, but unacceptable for all of us.

MARGARET BRENNAN : So France has one of the largest both Muslim and Jewish populations —

PRESIDENT MACRON: — This is true. —

MARGARET BRENNAN: — in all of Europe. The U.S. Ambassador to France, Charles Kushner, the father of the son-in-law to the President of the United States, Jared’s father, he published an article, and I know you’ve you’ve read it, saying France is not dealing with antisemitism here in France. He said “not a day passes without Jews assaulted in the street, synagogues or schools defaced, or Jewish-owned businesses vandalized. Your own Interior Ministry has reported antisemitic incidents even at preschools.” Do you accept this criticism as genuine and valid?

PRESIDENT MACRON: Not at all. I think this is a mistake and an unacceptable statement for somebody who is supposed to be a diplomat.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Unacceptable statement.

PRESIDENT MACRON: Yes, never a French Ambassador will be allowed to do so. So either you are a person who wants to express freely. Fine. If you are a diplomat, you have to follow the rule of diplomacy. And I’m not the one, this is you to pay the Ambassador of the United States in France, but the taxpayer money is not properly used to finance this kind of statement. So this is not a speech, a letter or a word of an ambassador. This is unacceptable. Now, the matter is much more important. And the matter about antisemitism is, for me, one of my top priority. I was the first president in France to adopt the definition of antisemitism, making it the equivalent of anti-zionism. And I’ve always been very engaged, again, antisemitism. We’ve worked very hard during the past few years in order to precisely re-engage, have faster sanctions and I never neglected this topic.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You know in the U.S. sometimes people hear criticism of Israel as antisemitic. —

PRESIDENT MACRON: No. —

MARGARET BRENNAN: — But you’re saying it’s different. —

PRESIDENT MACRON: –No. My point is to say, you can, you cannot reject the existence of Israel. Ani, anti-Zionism is unacceptable and is antisemitism. But it doesn’t mean that you are not allowed to be in disagreement with the Government of Israel. Otherwise we will become crazy. I’m sorry, but I want to fight very hard against anti, antisemitism. I am very against any anti-Zionist speech, but I do endorse to be in disagreement with Prime Minister Netanyahu and some of his ministers on many topics. It doesn’t make me an antisemitic. Otherwise we are completely trapped in an impossible world. And this is precisely why the public debate makes this situation completely crazy. If we want peace and stability and unity, we have to be precise, sharp and respectful. So in this country, for many years, we had this problem with antisemitism like in a lot of other countries.

What I disagree with is the argument made by your ambassador and the Prime Minister of Israel, in another public letter, making a link between the recognition and antisemitism. You have, you have a surge of antisemitism in the U.S. and you don’t recognize. You have a surge of antisemitism in Germany. Nothing to do with recognition. Everywhere we have such a surge of antisemitism. It started before the seventh of October. A lot of these guys expressed their antisemitism the seventh of October itself. How, as awful it could be, but they did and it increased after. We have to fight against this phenomenon. We have to read – first, we have to sanction. We just passed a law for our high schools and universities to improve the regulations and to be in a situation to sanction all the antisemitism being expressed there. So we are very hard. We work very hard with the Jewish community in, in our country. And, and Jewish people are part of the DNA of the French Republic. So no chance anybody here will abandon the situation.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Has this hurt your relationship with the U.S.?

PRESIDENT MACRON: No, I don’t think so.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Because you do have a few other points of friction right now, or different views than the Trump administration.

PRESIDENT MACRON: My objective on this- on this- on this issue, is- is very clearly to- to engage on the basis of the plan we will put on the table with, with the U.S. administration. And there is a work, an important work, which is made by Mr. Witkoff, Secretary Rubio, but as well Jared Kushner and Tony Blair. So we had many exchange with, with these people and and they work very hard on, on, on important ideas. So my objective is clearly to to engage with this administration, and to show that we can clearly articulate what they have in mind and a full-fledged peace and security plan for all.

MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about what’s happening here in Europe. In regard to Russia, NATO jets were scrambled twice within just the past few weeks because of these Russian drones that have been crossing into Poland and into Romania. It’s the first time in NATO’s history that they had to shoot down enemy crafts that had crossed in do you believe that these incursions could have been a mistake, as President Trump has suggested?

PRESIDENT MACRON: Very clearly, Russia is a destabilizing and aggressive power in Europe. They increased, during the past few weeks, the attacks against Kiev and killing a lot of civilians. They destroyed official buildings of the Ukrainian government, but as well premises of the UK Government, of the European Union. And at the same time, during the same weeks, they violated the Polish and the Romanian air. There is no mistake. There is just a project which is to destroy the maximum territories of Ukraine, to have a victory in Ukraine, and just to highlight what they want, the weakness of NATO.

MARGARET BRENNAN: NATO says they’re still investigating. They are not as certain as you seem to be–

PRESIDENT MACRON: –No. I’m not saying–

MARGARET BRENNAN: –that Russia did this intentionally.

PRESIDENT MACRON: I just say this is not totally i- This is not a specific point. If we had a situation where they were declining or decreasing the attacks against Kiev and and on the battlefield. I could accept this argument. My point is to say it’s largely beyond that. My point is to say, look at what they did during the past few weeks. So, I sincerely believe that your president was committed and is committed to to make peace in Ukraine, and he engaged, he took the risk to make a summit with President Putin in Anchorage and- and he asked for negotiations. And I think he’s right. But at the same time, I have to, just to recognize that there is no clear willingness of President Putin to be sincerely engaged in such a move, because as we were working on a diplomatic way, as we were trying to organize bilateral, trilateral, quadrilateral summit, the Russians were increasing the assaults in Donbas, but not just in Donbas, intensified provocations on one side and attacks on Kyiv on the other side. So I just look at the facts, and your president is as well looking at the facts. So now, what do we do? We have to increase sanctions against Russia, but we have to find the way to precisely put more pressure on Russia to bring them back at the table. In parallel, let me insist on one point. When we came to Washington D.C., a series of European leaders with President Zelenskyy, we took a commitment, we will work to provide to Ukraine security guarantees, and we delivered. A few days ago here in Paris, we gathered what we call the coalition of the willing. You have 30 countries working together in order to provide the day after peace security guarantees to Ukraine. So we have all these elements now with an historical commitment of the Europeans who provide the security guarantees to Ukraine. What we need now is Ukraine to be at the table with Russia and negotiating what the peace agreement could be, on territory, on security guarantee, on the escalation, on recovery etc.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And you don’t see any eviden- evidence of Russian interest. I mean it’s been more than–

PRESIDENT MACRON: –So now we have to step up, and we need political, military and economic surge in order to bring them back at the table and to negotiate.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So to that point, because it’s now more than a month since that Alaska Summit, that big risk you said President Trump took. When he’s been asked, so why not put sanctions or secondary tariffs on Russia, he points back here at Europe and the consumption of Russian oil and gas that still takes place. I know Hungary and Slovakia, for example, continue to use it.

PRESIDENT MACRON: This is true, and we are fixing it. And we had discussion with Ursula von der Leyen, and she made a great work with with her teams to fix that. But let’s be honest, this is very marginal. This is not a key driver today. We decreased by more than 80% the consumption of oil and gas. And I can tell you, because we were not the most impacted as a country, because we were less dependent on this oil- oil- oil and gas coming from Russia. But we have to finalize- to finish the job. This is true, but now it’s clearly much more that when we are to do- what we have to do. We- we have to step up our support to Ukraine, and we have to provide the way to better resist to the new attacks on Kiev and civilians.

MARGARET BRENNAN: What’s the delay on the sanctions or tariffs then?

PRESIDENT MACRON: As soon as possible. If it depends just on me, tomorrow. But it doesn’t just depend on me. So I hope, I think we have to react collectively if you want my- my strong view, I think it’s very important. I think we all agree we want peace. We all agree the problem is Russia because they don’t want peace. So now we have to increase the pressure to convince Russia to come back at the table.

MARGARET BRENNAN: As the Trump administration has pointed to the idea that there are billions of dollars sitting in European bank accounts that could be seized, for example. Or that, you know, here you could put more tariffs on China or sanctions on China. Are these valid arguments by the administration, or are these–

PRESIDENT MACRON: –Look, regarding the frozen assets we are all very much attached to- to be compliant with international rules. And you cannot seize these assets from the central bank even in such a situation. And I think it’s a matter of credibility, and it’s very important that our countries remain [inaudible] and do respect the international laws. Because this is our problem everywhere. If we speak about Middle East, if we speak about the situation in Ukraine, when some countries start to disrespect international laws and when we are not sufficiently strong, this is the beginning of a total chaos. So we will respect international law. We are predictable, and we will not do all impossible things with these frozen assets. We already took them as, not as a collateral, but we took this frozen asset, and all the proceeds coming from this frozen asset were used to finance our efforts, part of our effort to Ukraine. This is the first point. As for your second point, it was sorry–

MARGARET BRENNAN: –I asked about the China aspect. That the administration would like you to push back on China more.

PRESIDENT MACRON: Look, I think we will have our own diplomacy on China, and we are very much attached to our independence, which is normal. And we have a de-risking strategy, but we are not in a decoupling strategy.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So that’s a no on the pressure from the administration to do that?

PRESIDENT MACRON: My point is, let’s focus on some secondary sanctions, if they make sense. I think what we- what we have to do is to engage a serious dialogue in order to see where and in which capacity Russia is helped by third countries, and to increase the pressure. So I think this approach is a good one, but it should be targeted and directly related to Russia. And I think- what I don’t think what we- what we will do as Europeans with the US administration, it is working hard in all capacity by capacity, product by product, to see the key countries allowing Russia, sometimes to have a third way and to avoid sanctions or to benefit from the current situation. This is what we call the secondary sanction, because you don’t sanction directly Russia, but a third country which is helping them, and this job has to be made, has already started technically. I’m totally in favor of this job.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And just a final question here to ask you again about NATO. The US has not contributed fighter jets to that new effort that was just recently announced after the drone incursions. The Supreme Allied Commander is an American, but does that signal something to you? Does that concern you that the United States isn’t more muscular here?

PRESIDENT MACRON: No, I’m not concerned or worried about that. I want to say that the NATO Secretary General worked very hard, and we all gathered and exchanged information with the Polish Prime Minister and the Polish president in the hours right after this, what happened. And for instance, UK and France stepped up and we sent fighters. But it’s fine. We were in a situation to do so, and we are totally credible. But at the same time, look at what the US is doing in on the Eastern flank of NATO. You are a very strong contributor and reliable partner. So I don’t want to- to diminish this role and your commitment and- and I think your President was very clear about, as well, his commitment to NATO. But I- I’m totally in line with the fact that the Europeans have to step up. I’ve defended for years the fact that we need more independence, more strategic autonomy in- in Europe, and we need a stronger European pillar. This is why, by the way, right after my first election, I started to increase the budget of our army, and in 10 years, we will have doubled this budget. And- and I am already in favor of having all the Europeans increasing their budget, their defense expenditures, and as well building an actual industry research and development basis for defense and security, working together and building a strong, consistent European pillar in NATO. Because it’s fair that the US wants to focus much more on its own security, or wants to work much more on the Pacific side, and asks Europeans to be more engaged and committed for their own security. I share this perspective, and this is one of the priority of the Europeans.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. President. Thank you for your time today.

PRESIDENT MACRON: Thank you very much for being here and offering me this opportunity to explain our views. Thank you.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Thank you.

[End Transcript]